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The great planet debate - Dec. 14
14 December 95 From Geoff Haines-Stiles A CLARIFICATION ON "COMING TO A DECISION ON LIVE FROM THE HST PLANET CHOICES!" FROM HEIDI HAMMEL From: serber@appl.sci-nnov.ru: a vote for Pluto From: Rob Theriaque Subject: Final Decision From: "ALEX STORRS (410)-338-4903": How many planets can we observe? From: Jan WeeS: New areas open on the web site! From: Rob Theriaque To: "ALEX STORRS (410)-338-4903" : Re: How many planets can we observe? From: JaniceA737@aol.com: Votes from N.C. Several From: Zellerbach Middle School : Planet Votes From: Summit Middle School : PLANET CHOICE From: SGreenDW1@aol.com: Hello! From San Francisco From: Tim McCollum : Planet choice From: Diane smith : Our Choice From: Sharon Held : Our Planet choice From: Tim McCollum : Planet choice From: Cathy Miller : Planet Debate From: David Eggebrecht : Planet Debate Vote From: HLefcourt@aol.com: Planet Choices From: OrtmanD@aol.com: Planet Discussion From: "Thomas W. Kraupe" : Vote for Uranus from a Munich School From: "Thomas W. Kraupe": Result of Interactive Votes (Planetarium Munich) From: Sheri Edwards : Planet Choice From: Judith Besso : The Great Planet Debate ***************************************************** A CLARIFICATION ON "COMING TO A DECISION ON LIVE FROM THE HST PLANET CHOICES!" FROM HEIDI HAMMEL by Geoff Haines-Stiles Dear discuss, Since we're pledged to playing fair and square, here's a correction from Neptune PA Heidi Hammel to my earlier overview/digest about where we stand on the final decision. It relates to apparent image size and detail during the time we receive the "live" date on March 14. Heidi comments on my remark: > expect, Jupiter is by far the largest target, and we might expect some > detail, but with the other planets we'll be waiting for image processing "Just a small correction: The Neptune images would show bright clouds and banded structure immediately in the raw images - they will be completely obvious on the STScI display as they are coming in. It is true that to find dark spots (if they exist) would take some processing. Heidi" Thanks, Heidi. On and Up, GEOFF HAINES-STILES ********************************************** From: serber@appl.sci-nnov.ru Subject: a vote for Pluto Hi everybody, This is Alexander Serber from Nizhny Novgorod, Russia. Oleg Chizh from a specialized school in physics and mathematics just called me to vote for Pluto, the planet on which very little is known. Who on Earth will tell me a preliminary rating for canddate planets??? Waiting, Alexander. *********************************************** Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 Hi,
One last note from Nashua High School. We have been following with extreme
interest the discussion surrounding the decision. We see that many students
are still seeking the thrill of exploring Pluto and understand the excitement
surrounding that possibility. We stand by our recommendation that the
planet explored supply immediate visual feedback to maintain the interest
of the participants. The added possibility of splitting the orbits adds
an interesting wrinkle to the discussion, however. Are Pluto and Neptune
in close enough proximity so that a minimum amount of observing time would
be lost in shifting the HST from one to the other. We would hate to loose
a significant amount of observing time shifting the telescope from one
target to the other. If, however, we wouldn't loose much time, we would
be happy to see images of Pluto as well as Neptune. If there is a time
loss, however, we feel that the telescope should maintain its lock on
Neptune and gather as much information as possible.
The excitement is building in this classroom, and the second guessers
are starting to come out of the woodwork. (Maybe we should have suggested..........)
Looking forward to the final decision, we remain
Stanch Neptunians!!!!!!
Nashua High School ****************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 Rob Theriaque raises the question of time lost in switching between
targets. We have four planets to choose from, and three HST orbits. No
observing time would be lost if we did one orbit on each of three planets
(or two on one and one on another, etc.) since the switch between targets
can be done during the time HST is behind the Earth. In fact, at the time
of observation Uranus and Neptune are only six degrees apart in the sky,
and it is theoretically possible to switch between the two during one
orbit. This *will* cost observing time, about 15 minutes worth, and means
you could only get 10-15 minutes each on Uranus and Neptune. But you could
get pictures of all four targets. You would not be able to get maps of
the planets, you'd only get snapshots of whichever side was facing the
Earth at the time of the observation.
Hope this helps!
Alex Storrs ***********************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 From: Jan Wee Dear discuss-hst,
I would like you to be aware that the NASA Quest folks have been busily
expanding our web site. Newly added areas included: TEACHER'S LOUNGE (listed
on our home page at: http://quest.arc.nasa.gov/livefrom/hst.html)
You will find a TEACHER REGISTRATION DATABASE... a place to register,
describe self, and find out who else is participating and has web access.
OUR DISCUSS-HST ARCHIVE ("TEACHER DISCUSSION OF THE GREAT DEBATE" is
the name of the link) is available in part, but will be expanding to include
most postings to this discussion group. You will find this past week's
discussion already available!
WEB CHAT DISCUSSION AREA... this link allows students and teachers an
opportunity for live chats. During the Live From the Stratosphere project
many students and educators participated in "web chat" sessions. These
usually were very organic with spontaneous suggestions for meeting dates
and times being posted to the list. The feedback was very positive from
those who used this feature of the web site.
You might also want to check out WHAT'S NEW.... copies of postings from
our Planet Advocates, links to images, etc. will be found here and late
breaking news or reminders.
By now you have a clear idea of the process we will be using today and
tomorrow to reach our CONSENSUS decision. These two days will prove to
be very exciting and full of "hot debate." I hope to keep you posted as
to the progress.
If you have not posted your input, please be sure to do so ASAP. We
want to consider all opinions and the rationale behind them.
Sincerely, **************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 ALEX STORRS (410)-338-4903 wrote:
> > Rob Theriaque raises the question of time lost in switching between
> targets. We have four planets to choose from, and three HST orbits.
No > observing time would be lost if we did one orbit on each of three
planets > (or two on one and one on another, etc.) since the switch between
targets > can be done during the time HST is behind the Earth. In fact,
at the time > of observation Uranus and Neptune are only six degrees apart
in the sky, > and it is theoretically possible to switch between the two
during one > orbit. This *will* cost observing time, about 15 minutes
worth, and means > you could only get 10-15 minutes each on Uranus and
Neptune. But you > could get pictures of all four targets. You would not
be able to get maps > of the planets, you'd only get snapshots of whichever
side was facing the > Earth at the time of the observation.
> > Hope this helps!
> > Alex Storrs We didn't mean to suggest that we dilute the project to the point where
we only get "snapshots" of the planets. We would like to get a few reasonably
detailed images during this opportunity. We don't think we should waste
any viewing time switching targets during a particular orbit. If we can
get useful pictures of Neptune on orbits 1 and 3, maybe we could use orbit
two to look at an alternate target.
Rob
****************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 Our Earth Science class voted yesterday-results are as follows:
Jupiter - 5 Janice Arden ***************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 From: Zellerbach Middle
School Group 1 votes from James David Zellerbach Middle School
Pluto: 6 Because it is the smallest and we have very little info about
it. Thank you for the chance to record our votes!
*********************
Hello,
We are from James David Zellerbach Middle School and we are writing
to record our votes for the planets.
Pluto: 4 **********************
Hello, Jupiter 2 Uranus 2 Pluto 2 Thanks.
************************
Hello, Jupiter: 2 Neptune: 1 Uranus 2 Pluto 9 ***************************
Hello, Neptune:5 Pluto: 8 Because in two or three years it will float out of orbit and
right now it is at a hot spot. In 200 years we won't be able to see it.
Uranus: 0
Jupiter: 0
***************************
Hello, **********************
Hello, Neptune: 6 Pluto: 7 Uranus: 3 ********************
Hello, We are here to record our votes for the planet we want the Hubble
telescope to explore.
Pluto: 16
*************************
Hello, Pluto: 6 Jupiter: 3 Uranus: 6 ************************
Hello, Neptune 4 Jupiter: 1 Uranus: 3 Pluto: 2 **************************
Hello, Pluto: 3 Uranus: 8 *************************
Hello, Jupiter: 6 Uranus: 3 ***************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 From: Summit Middle School GREETINGS FROM: Our PLANET CHOICE is summarized below. I will not testify to the scientific
validity of my students' choices but I must emphasize that this entire
process has really been exciting and interesting to the kids. They really
"got into" this GREAT PLANET DEBATE! It became "the hook" for appropriate
learning and they took quite seriously the idea that they (along with
an international group of students) had INPUT into a REAL SCIENTIFIC ENDEAVOR!!
I overheard discussions in the hallway and in the cafeteria this week
- "What are you going to vote for?" And I was gratified that the kids
were actually LISTENING to each other. As my classes progressed through
THE GREAT PLANET DEBATE today, we kept the tally on the chalkboard and
kids kept popping into the room all day long to check! By the final classes,
the debate was going hot and heavy and I thought I might have to physically
restrain a few enthusiastic debaters. IT WAS, INDEED, A GREAT PLANET DEBATE! JUPITER - 4%
***************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 From: SGreenDW1@aol.com
Subject: Hello! From San Francisco
Hello everyone out there. My name is Steven Green, science resource
teacher at Daniel Webster School in San Francisco. I've now been "ON THE
NET" for three whole weeks :-) To try out this type of project I've selected
a small group of students to research the four planets and think hard
of important questions to ask as to which planet (or planets) the Hubble
Space Telescope should observe. It's been an exciting few weeks for all.
Here are the attached two files. I hope to expand this type of project
to all the students here at Daniel Webster School. See you on the Net
in the future!!
Steven Green
***********************
Subject: We want Uranus
We want the Hubble Space Telescope to study about Uranus because scientists
don't know what it's made out of. We would like to know if Uranus is made
out of the same materials as Neptune. The Hubble Space Telescope could
tell us. We want to know if Uranus has any more moons. Also we want to
know if the rocks on Uranus are the same as Earth rocks. The Hubble Space
Telescope could also tell us more about the rings around Uranus. That's
why we want the Hubble Space Telescope to study Uranus. Judy Chang 5th
grade Andre Reid 5th grade Daniel Webster School 465 Missouri St. San
Francisco , CA 94107 *************************
Subject: We want Jupiter
The Hubble Space Telescope should look at Jupiter because we have seen
Jupiter in books and with the Galileo Space Probe but we want to see and
know more about it. Here is a list of questions we want answered about
Jupiter. Are the rocks on Jupiter different from the ones on Earth? What
makes the rings around Jupiter? Will the Hubble Telescope see the rings
better than we can see now? Does Jupiter have volcanos on its surface
and do they erupt? We want to know what the colors of Jupiter are made
of? Well thats why we want the Hubble Space Telescope to look at Jupiter.
Wendy X. Soriano, 5th grade Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 From: Tim McCollum
As a class we chose Pluto as the planet we would like to have observed
by HST. We based our decision on three main reasons. First, Pluto is the
farthest planet from the sun. Because of this, we know very little about
it. We need to take advantage of every chance we have to study Pluto.
Next, because of Pluto's eliptical orbit, it is now closer to the sun
then it will be in the next two to three hundred years. This will will
cause many changes in climate, which could later lead to geological changes.
HST will allow us to watch and learn as these changes occur. Last, since
Pluto is in its stage nearest to us, we will be able to get more detailed
pictures of the planet. We will also learn about its moon. If we don't
take advantage of this opportunity now, we will have to wait another two
hundred and forty years.
Susan Woolever, Lauren Kidwell, Kristin Taylor, Danny Pearcy, Jeff Hoedebecke,
Leslie Savage, Chris Bates, Ashley Ulrey, Tiffany Dudley, Mike Lindley,
Kyle N., Amanda W., Amy B.
Tim McCollum 217-345-2193 (school) ****************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 We are the students from the Maywood center in SeTtac, Washington.
Pluto is our first choice, Pluto might be the moon of a Planet X , but
have a enough gravity to attach a moon.Jordan's reson It has never been
explored so I think it should be studied. Uranus is our choice.
Uranus is the 7 planet from the sun and the third largest. It was the
only planet discovered by accident by William Herschal. It rotates on
it's side and it also has rings made of rock,dust,and ice. Uranus visited
only one time spacecraft called voyager2 on Jan 24,1986. The planet we chose was Neptune. The Great Dark Spot and the "Scooter,"
are very interesting features. We would like to learn more about Neptune's
ring system and its eight moons. Today 3 children were absent and their votes are unavailable, but the
consensus from our class is Pluto with 3 votes. However the other children
wrote their opinions above and are looking forward to the Live From The
Hubble project.
Diane Smith - Teacher
******************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 From: Sharon Held This is our choice out of all the planets. We chose Uranus because we
want to find out why it is tipped over on its side, why it is blue, and
if there is any life form on it. We want to know what forms the rings
and if there are any other gases. Are there any other moons that we don't
know about? **************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 95 The following was submitted by students in my 9th hour 8th grade science
class.
We would like the Hubble Space Telescope to look at Jupiter. We would
like to know what's under those clouds, how the wind blows, and if it
is anything like the Earth. Also, it is the largest planet in our solar
system. It has a very interesting climate and atmosphere. We want to know
more about the Great Red Spot. Jupiter is the closest to the Earth, therefore
it would be the clearest to see.
Angelina Magana, Tiffany Cobble, Brett Hildebrand, Tiffany Heath, Pam
Langston, Kristi McKay, Shayna Hackett, Jamie S, Erin R, Brendan W, Herb
M, Mark M.
Tim McCollum 217-345-2193 (school) ******************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 Hello from Springfield, IL! Mrs. Miller's Class: JUPITER: They are interested in the big red spot,
and the fact that it is the largest planet.
Mr. Goss's Class: PLUTO: They are interested in this planet because
it is the furthest from the Sun and the fact that it has only 1 moon (or
does IT??!!)
Mrs. Henderson's Class: NEPTUNE: They are interested in this planet
because of the storms, hurricanes and the storm named SKOOTER.
The students loved this project and enjoyed reading all of the info.
sent via E-mail. They are anxiously awaiting the results.
Cathy Miller ******************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 December 95 Greetings from the 7th grade earth science students at Lance Junior
High School in Kenosha, Wisconsin.
We have really enjoyed researching and debating to determine which planet
the HST should study. Thanks to the Planet Advocates for their insights
and thanks to all the classes and students who already made their choices.
We have decided that the best candidate for study is Neptune. Professor
Hammel's argument was very persuasive and we looked at current images
of the planets from HST. The Neptune images are clear enough to see colored
cloud patterns and spots. When we learned that the dark spot recently
reappeared, we were convinced. Neptune has an atmosphere which is changing
and we are likely to learn something new from observing it.
*****************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 From: Christine Jones We began by creating team webs detailing information about each of the
4 planets. We got information from internet, electronic encyclopedias
and print materials. We then shared our information with the class and
held a debate. In all three classes, Pluto was the favorite. Most students
are intrigued and fascinated with the fact that from telescopes on Earth
there appears to be frozen methane on the surface and is probably covered
with ice.
We had a great time learning and we can't wait to see the results!!!
Christie Jones
--- ***************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 From: HLefcourt@aol.com
Subject: Planet Choices
Greetings from Morris Knolls HS in Rockaway, NJ. At the moment our participation
is from physics students who are involved in the planet choice as an optional
project. As of today, the summary results are as follows:
Jupiter- 60%. The reasons for this choice were essentially curiosity
concerning the weather patterns and composition. There is also great curiosity
concerning the Galilean Satellites. I do think that this may choice may
be influenced by the Galileo impact with Jupiter as well as an image processing
activity we are pursuing on this planet
Neptune-30%. Again curiousity about storm features on this planet.
Pluto-10%. Although there is uncertainty about the resolution that can
be obtained, the vote for this planet results from the fact that this
is the only planet not visited by a remote spacecraft, plus the interesting
"relationship" between the planet and its moon (Charon).
If we have a chance, a more detailed discussion will be posted. We are
all looking forward to the choice and images
Harold Lefcourt
******************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 From: OrtmanD@aol.com Subject:
Planet Discussion
>From Sioux Falls, South Dakota, John F Kennedy Elementary School, 5th
grade. We came on board just a few days ago but have done some intense
research and held some lively discussions.
The big picture: Decision was based on scientific considerations: Fifth grader's honesty: Neptune: They thought it would be nice if Heidi could complete her recent series
of pictures to map the entire atmosphere.
They thought the most interesting and significant scientific data would
be concerning the bright spots, does Scooter have relatives?, a new dark
spot, the color of the planet, cloud patterns and storms.
If there is a choice between the rings or the surface, they would choose
the surface. Pluto: Could possibly see something never seen before.
A lot of unknowns that would be exciting to investigate: clouds,winds,
atmosphere, bright and dark surface areas, surface frost markings, Charon.
*******************************************************
Date: Thu, 14 Dec 1995 From: Erik Rehn
-Erik Rehn, *****************************************************************
Date: 13 Dec 95 Dear Discussers,
here is a message I send on behalf of a school in Munich - which is
participating, but does not have access to Internet yet:
DEAR DISCUSSERS,
MY NAME IS HEIDI SCHNELL, I AM TEACHING THE CLASS 8B (KIDS OF AGE 9
TO 10) AT THE "HAUPTSCHULE" (ADDRESS: HAUPTSCHULE PERLACHERSTRASSE 114,
D-81539 MUENCHEN, GERMANY) IT IS SO WONDERFUL THAT WE CAN PARTICIPATE
ALTHOUGH WE DO NOT YET HAVE EMAIL/INTERNET ACCESS.
MY CLASS WAS VERY ACTIVE - ALTHOUGH WE DID NOT HAVE MUCH TIME TO PREPARE...
I EXPLAINED EACH PLANET AND WE LOOKED AT MANY PICTURES IN DIFFERENT BOOKS.
THE CLASS VOTED FINALLY FOR URANUS, BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY INTERESTED
IN ITS RING SYSTEM IN PARTICULAR - ALSO THEY LIKE THAT URANUS HAS BEEN
NAMED AFTER THE GOD OF THE HEAVEN.
MY CLASS IS ESPECIALLY INTERESTED IN THE FOLLOWING AND HOPES TO FIND
OUT MORE ABOUT IT WITH HUBBLE:
- ARE THERE STORMS ON URANUS? THANK YOU - WE HOPE THAT WE CAN CONTINUE TO PARTICIPATE AND WOULD LOVE
TO COMMUNICATE WITH OTHER CLASSES - GREETINGS FROM SNOWCOVERED BAVARIA
(NOT YET AS COLD AS URANUS FORTUNATELY...)
HEIDI SCHNELL ******************************************************
Date: 13 Dec 95 Dear Friends of the Wandering Stars,
here an update on the interactive votings performed at our Munich planetarium
theater:
In general JUPITER and NEPTUN seem to become the two winners here in
our planetarium among the school groups (voting via responder boxes after
we showed existing images of all four planets made by HST - after also
explaining pros and cons for each planet).
Jupiter is still in front - but seems to me that we get more and more
votes for Neptun now (the Stormchasers are obviously becoming really active
here for Neptun - is there a new great dark spot...?). Galileo's arrival
did not increase votes for Jupiter any more, it had just the opposite
effect - it worked for Neptun - interesting....
Well, might be we can discuss to split the 3 orbits among two of the
suggested planets - maybe Jupiter and Neptun? This might be an interesting
question for the final discussion on Friday - like to hear from you if
this makes sense in terms of observation time vs. rotational period of
each planet (allowing us to see either just one half of the planet or
a little more - for Jupiter at least we see much more than 50% of the
whole globe in 2-3 orbits of HST). Any comments?
Thomas
-----------------------------------------------------------
Thomas W. Kraupe, Director e-mail: 100626.1077@compuserve.com or tkraupe@eso.org *****************************************************
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 From: Sheri Edwards /\ Sheri Edwards Greetings from Nespelem, Washington Our fifth/sixth grade class formed committees to research each planet.
Then each expert committee presented the facts about the researched planet
to other groups in our "Great Planet Debate Conference." Each team presented
general information and the reasons why the Hubble Space Telescope with
its cameras and spectrographs should explore their planet.
Uranus is the planet of choice, with 55 % of the student scientists
recommending it. All of us are amazed that it is tilted on its side, but
we believe the HST can help solve our other questions: why is it surrounded
by thick, crystal ice clouds? Does it have the same elements as Pluto
and Neptune (are they from the same source)? Why doesn't Uranus have storms
like Jupiter and Neptune? When Uranus comes into the sunlight, will the
weather system change to a stormy planetary system, and will the rings
melt? What are the rings made of? And why isn't Uranus frozen, since it
is so cold and has no interior heat source? These are the questions that
the cameras and spectrographs aboard the HST may help answer.
Twenty-seven (27) per cent of the students chose Neptune based on the
class debate. The interest lies in several areas: Is there another Great
Dark Spot? How do they form? How do they change hemispheres? Did the Scooter,
or white spot, come back? What is it? How big is it? Is it a hurricane?
Is there any solid ground to land on? How were the rings formed and what
are they made of? What is on the two moons, Triton and Nerid? The HST
could help solve some of these mysteries.
Jupiter was the choice of fifteen (15) per cent of the student scientists
after the great debate. The class decided that having double coverage
with the HST and Galileo would help provide answers to several questions:
What exactly is the Red Spot composed of? What makes it such a strong
and huge hurricane? What causes the jet streams? Could we see through
the cloud layers through a hole and see if there is a liquid or rocky
surface in Jupiter's interior? We could understand the volcanoes on Io
and the effect of Jupiter's gravitational pull on that moon.
Although none of the students voted for Pluto because the camera images
would be about the same as current images, we still wonder what is happening
with the albedos--have they changed? We know that HST cannot help us determine
why Pluto is so small, what its origin is, and why it has one moon almost
half its size. We could get more information about what it is made of,
though.
Again, Uranus has the most interest because of the questions about its
atmosphere and rings. The Hubble's instruments could help provide information
about its lack of storms, the elements of its rings, and the reason Uranus
is not frozen solid. Uranus is large enough for good observations. Our
recommendation is to study Uranus.
Thanks for letting us help you decide !
Grade 5/6 Nespelem School∫ ****************************************************
Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 Hi everyone, The students went through the newest books in our library dealing with
the solar system and read the comments from planet advocates. Student
choices and qustions are as follows.
Neptune- 44% Why do the dark spots and Scooter move? What materials
are in them? Why is the planet blue? Why does Triton rotate backwards?
Pluto- 44% Why don't we study it now rather than wait another 240 years?
Why is it so small and so far away? Is it really the last planet in our
solar system? Why is its orbit so long and ellitical?
Jupiter- 12% How fast do the storms move? Are there really diamonds
at the core? What else can we learn about the big red spot? We are excited
to be part of this project!
Judie Besso
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